Topical medicine is for use only on the skin. Lidoderm. If you have experienced asthma-like symptoms, developed hives (urticaria) or other allergic-type reactions in the past after taking aspirin or other NSAIDs (like ibuprofen), do not take diclofenac. Do not drive, use machinery, or do anything that needs alertness or clear vision until you can do it safely. This is not a complete list of possible side effects. Stomach-related side effects such as indigestion, belching, heartburn, and bleeding. hives or swelling. The 4 g line is 4.5 inches long. The study uses data from the FDA. Flector Patch is put on your skin. Management of chronic pain is complicated and many of the available medication options can lead to unwanted adverse effects. No more than 16 g should be applied to any one lower extremity or 8 g to any one upper extremity joint per day. 2008;8(4):287-313. Diclofenac topical patch and topical system is used to treat Diclofenac may be associated with a higher risk compared with other NSAIDs, such as ibuprofen. Any missing drug warnings or information does not in any way guarantee the safety, effectiveness, or the lack of adverse effects of any drug. Ask your doctor or pharmacist for more details. Get emergency medical help if you have signs of an allergic reaction (hives, sneezing, runny or stuffy nose, wheezing or trouble breathing, swelling in your face or throat) or a severe skin reaction (fever, sore throat, burning eyes, skin pain, red or purple skin rash with blistering and peeling). Mayo Clinic on Incontinence - Mayo Clinic Press, NEW The Essential Diabetes Book - Mayo Clinic Press, NEW Ending the Opioid Crisis - Mayo Clinic Press, FREE Mayo Clinic Diet Assessment - Mayo Clinic Press, Mayo Clinic Health Letter - FREE book - Mayo Clinic Press. Pennsaid 2% (diclofenac sodium topical solution ) package insert. Pharmacologic management of neuropathic pain: evidence-based recommendations. Should not be given during or following coronary artery bypass graft surgery. WebBackground. This product may contain inactive ingredients, which can cause allergic reactions or other problems. Drug information found in the drug comparisons published on RxList.com is primarily sourced from the FDA drug information. Pill Identifier Tool Quick, Easy, Pill Identification, Drug Interaction Tool Check Potential Drug Interactions, Pharmacy Locator Tool Including 24 Hour, Pharmacies. Severe Interactions These medications are not usually taken Copyright 2022 by RxList Inc. RxList does not provide medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. Pharmacological management of persistent pain in older persons. The drug information provided is intended for reference only and should not be used as a substitute for medical advice. Get medical help right away if you have any very serious side effects, including: signs of kidney problems (such as change in the amount of urine, pink/bloody urine), unexplained stiff neck. The dosage is based on your medical condition, response to treatment, and other medications you may be taking. Removal after 12 hours is necessary to prevent elevated blood concentrations of lidocaine, which can lead to serious adverse events such as cardiac dysrhythmia and methemoglobinemia.16 Up to three patches may be applied at once, and they may be cut to smaller sizes.15 While clothing may be worn over the patch, occlusive dressings and heat can increase absorption of the anesthetic and should be avoided. In terms of side effects, both may lead to irritation at the site of application. The dosing card is Antihistamines, Joint Pain, and Arthritis, Arthritis Relief (diclofenac gel 1%), 150 g, Lidocaine Patch 4% Maximum Strength, 20 Patches, Guaifenesin 1200 mg tablet (Mucus, 84 ct), Guaifenesin 1200 mg tablet (Mucus, 150 ct), Witch hazel 50% & aloe wipe (Hemorrhoids). Dronedarone. Philadelphia, PA: Saunders/Elsevier; 2012:133. Hand washing should commence after application. Diclofenac topical may also cause stomach or intestinal bleeding, which can be fatal. Contact your healthcare professional (e.g. minutes after applying Voltaren Gel. Do not take by mouth. Dworkin RH, OConnor AB, Backonja M, et al. Diclofenac gel and lidocaine cream are available in local pharmacies as well as stores online like Curist, and do not need a prescription. Read and carefully follow any Instructions for Use provided with your medicine. Postgrad Med. Prescription options for nonopioid topical analgesia in the U.S. include diclofenac and lidocaine. Read the Medication Guide provided by your pharmacist before you start taking diclofenac and each time you get a refill. Reproduction in whole or in part without permission is prohibited. Drink plenty of fluids as directed by your doctor to prevent dehydration and tell your doctor right away if you have pink/bloody urine or any unusual change in the amount of urine. Personalize this study to your gender and age, Rheumatoid arthritis (a chronic progressive disease causing inflammation in the joints), Systemic lupus erythematosus (an autoimmune disease, which means the body's immune system mistakenly, attacks healthy tissue), Hypotension (abnormally low blood pressure), Tylenol W/ Codeine No. Selected from data included with permission and copyrighted by First Databank, Inc. It may not be safe to breastfeed while using this medicine. Carlsbad Technology, Inc. Remember, keep this and all other medicines out of the reach of children, never share your medicines with others, and use diclofenac only for the indication prescribed. Chou R, Huffman LH, American Pain Society, American College of Physicians. Consult your healthcare professional (e.g., doctor or pharmacist) for more in formation. Curist delivers FDA-approved medicines to your door at half the price of traditional brands. All drug information provided on RxList.com is sourced directly from drug monographs published by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA). This document does not contain all possible drug interactions. What is Better for Hemorrhoids: Diclofenac Gel or Lidocaine Cream? Prior to first use, the pump needs to be primed by depressing it four times fully and discarding the pumped solution.14, The appearance of the diclofenac topical solution ranges from colorless to slightly pink or orange, and the bottle should be stored at room temperature.12-14 It is important to inform patients that the skin must be intact and healthy prior to application to avoid potential overdosage. Limit your time in the sun. You may develop problems with your nervous system or heart and/or develop methemoglobinemia. Please talk with your doctor about any questions or concerns. Thats why your doctor should manage all of your medications carefully. All rights reserved. Weight Loss for Health and Longevity, Science Reveals How Red Meat Harms the Heart, Flavored Vapes Still in Stores Despite Federal Ban, New COVID Antiviral Pills: What You Need to Know, Dr. Whyte's Book: Take Control of Your Cancer Risk, WebMD Loses Cherished Leader Kristy Hammam, Health News and Information, Delivered to Your Inbox, Treating Opioid Use Disorder With Medications, Constipated? Lidoderm and Voltaren Gel belong to different drug classes. 14. Apply the gel (2 g) to the affected hand, wrist, or elbow 2014;163(79):11037-11045. A healthcare professional should be consulted before taking any drug, changing any diet or commencing or discontinuing any course of treatment. Do not use diclofenac topical just before or after heart bypass surgery (coronary artery bypass graft, or CABG). Saquinavir. Vernakalant. Should I avoid certain foods while taking Diclofenac Oral-lidocaine Topical? These medications may interact and cause very harmful effects. An increasingly popular pain management strategy is the use of noncontrolled topical pain management agents, including diclofenac and lidocaine. All rights reserved. Not all possible drug interactions are listed here. Is Lidocaine Cream Stronger than Diclofenac Gel? (NSAID). Do not combine it with other NSAIDs unless directed by your doctor. Examples of other NSAIDs are: Diclofenac reduces pain, but it also affects chemicals that keep your kidneys running efficiently. This effect may make your kidneys take longer to filter out some drugs. This may increase their levels in your body and side effects. Voltaren Gel can be used to apply the gel. People of an older age, taking other medicines that affect the stomach, or who drink more than 3 glasses of alcohol per day may be more at risk. Diclofenac is a nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drug (NSAID), which works by inhibiting enzymes that lead to the production of important inflammatory mediators (i.e., prostaglandins and thromboxanes). Lidocaine is an anesthetic that numbs pain by blocking nerve conduction and interrupting the transmission of pain signals. WHO Guidelines on the Pharmacological Treatment of Persisting Pain in Children With Medical Illnesses. In the US - Call your doctor for medical advice about side effects. Tell your doctor right away if you have any serious side effects, including: hearing changes (such as ringing in the ears), mental/mood changes, easy bleeding/bruising, difficult/painful swallowing, symptoms of heart failure (such as swelling ankles/feet, unusual tiredness, unusual/sudden weight gain). Do not double the dose to catch up. Before using this medication, women of childbearing age should talk with their doctor(s) about the benefits and risks. Serious. 4. Written by Cerner Multum. Copyright 1996-2023 Cerner Multum, Inc. Pain Med. When lidocaine patch 5% is used according to the recommended dosing instructions, only 3 2% of the dose applied is expected to be absorbed. This content does not have an Arabic version. Examples include anti-platelet drugs such as clopidogrel, "blood thinners" such as dabigatran/enoxaparin/warfarin, among others. Apply up to three patches, only once for up to 12 hours within a 24-hour period. 23. If both medicines are prescribed together, your doctor may change the dose or how often you use one or both of the medicines. health information, we will treat all of that information as protected health Diclofenac topical (for the skin) is used to treat joint pain caused by osteoarthritis. Always consult your healthcare provider to ensure the information displayed on this page applies to your personal circumstances. This survey is being conducted by the WebMD marketing sciences department. American Geriatrics Society Panel on Pharmacological Management of Persistent Pain in Older Persons. Symptoms may include skin rash, fever, swollen glands, muscle aches, severe weakness, unusual bruising, or yellowing of your skin or eyes. Common medications that may interact with diclofenac include: Drinking alcohol while taking diclofenac may increase the risk of gastrointestinal-related side effects or kidney damage. privacy practices. Management of persistent pain in the older patient: a clinical review. Dosage forms: topical cream (1%); topical gel (1%; 3%); topical kit (1%); topical solution (1.5%; 2%) Talk to your doctor or pharmacist about the benefits and risks of taking this drug. 2007;147(7):492-504. Stop using diclofenac and seek medical treatment if you have a serious drug reaction that can affect many parts of your body. If you are a Mayo Clinic patient, this could This is not a complete list of side effects and others may occur. Copyright 2023 IBM Watson Health. other information we have about you. RxList.com assumes no responsibility for any healthcare administered to a person based on the information found on this site. This product is available in the following dosage forms: There is a problem with NSAIDs, such as diclofenac, should not be used during the last three months of pregnancy because they can cause premature closure of the fetal ductus arteriosus. However, insufficient data exists to recommend lidocaine specifically for arthritis. information and will only use or disclose that information as set forth in our notice of CONDITIONS OF USE: The information in this database is intended to supplement, not substitute for, the expertise and judgment of healthcare professionals. 7. If you notice other effects not listed above, contact your doctor or pharmacist. It may increase your risk of stomach bleeding. CONDITIONS OF USE: The information in this database is intended to supplement, not substitute for, the expertise and judgment of healthcare professionals. heart disease, high blood pressure, high cholesterol, diabetes, or if you smoke; stomach ulcers, bleeding in your stomach or intestines; Diclofenac can affect ovulation and it may be harder to get pregnant while you are using this medicine. For certain conditions (such as arthritis), it may take up to 2 weeks of taking this drug regularly until you get the full benefit. Do not crush, chew, or break the tablets. Diclofenac sodium has active ingredients of diclofenac sodium. Minneapolis, MN: Perrigo; July 2014. This medicine may cause stomach bleeding. application. It should be noted that diclofenac gel is only recommended for application to the hands, wrists, elbows, knees, ankles, and feet. 1998-2023 Mayo Foundation for Medical Education and Research (MFMER). 12 Medicines That Could Help, List Diclofenac 75 Mg Tablet,Delay Release And Lidocaine 5 % Topical Patch side effects by likelihood and severity. 2014;312(8):825-836. Does Diclofenac 75 Mg Tablet,Delay Release And Lidocaine 5 % Topical Patch interact with other drugs you are taking? 3. Diclofenac [Package Insert] Revised 06/2022. Stop taking diclofenac and get medical help right away if you notice any of these rare but serious side effects: stomach/abdominal pain that doesn't go away, black/tarry stools, vomit that looks like coffee grounds, chest/jaw/left arm pain, shortness of breath, unusual sweating, confusion, weakness on one side of the body, trouble speaking, sudden vision changes. WebMD does not provide medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. As with all medication therapy, care must be taken to ensure that the drug is appropriate for the patient. Used to relieve mild-to-moderate acute pain associated with osteoarthritis and rheumatoid arthritis. 2009;57(8):1331-1346.20. When applied to the skin this specialized Emulgel formula helps the active ingredient, diclofenac, penetrate deep through the skin for powerful arthritis pain relief. artificial sunlight. The risk may be greater in older adults or if you have heart disease or increased risk for heart disease (for example, due to smoking, family history of heart disease, or conditions such as high blood pressure or diabetes). Hazelwood, MO: Mallinckrodt Brand Pharmaceuticals, Inc; August 2014 No related drugs found for this medication. This medicine prevents pain by blocking the signals at Tell your doctor if your condition gets worse. WebHow to use Diclofenac 75 Mg Tablet,Delay Release And Lidocaine 5 % Topical Patch Read the Medication Guide provided by your pharmacist before you start taking Pain. Wooden auxiliary crutches and walking sticks can be made locally for low cost as an income generation project for persons with disability or low income families or purchased. 2010-12-10 09:02:13. WebDr. 9. Health Technol Assess. skin site with other topical products, including sunscreens, cosmetics, Diclofenac topical patch and topical system is used to treat acute pain caused by minor strains, sprains, and contusions (bruises). Inform. Lidoderm (lidocaine patch 5%) and Voltaren Gel (diclofenac sodium topical gel) are both topical medications used to relieve different types of pain. Because different forms do not have the same effects at equal strengths, do not switch forms of diclofenac unless your doctor tells you to. 2009;13(17):iii, ix-x, 1-154. Phase IV trials are used to detect adverse drug outcomes and monitor drug effectiveness in the real world. Lidocaine cream should not be applied on skin that is broken, infected, swollen, or covered with rash. Management of persistent pain in the older patient: a clinical review. Accessed December 20, 2014. It is important to discuss pain relief options with your doctor before using this medication. You may opt-out of email communications at any time by clicking on Many people using this medication do not have serious side effects. It is based on diclofenac sodium and lidocaine (the active ingredients of Diclofenac sodium and Lidocaine, respectively), and Diclofenac sodium and Lidocaine (the brand names). This reduces the likelihood of opioid-induced nausea, vomiting, and diarrhea.8, Topical medications must be able to penetrate and diffuse readily into the targeted tissue.8 To pass the corneum stratum, lipophilic, hydrophilic, and low-molecular-weight characteristics are desired.8 Because topically administered products avoid absorption in the GI tract and have limited first-pass metabolism, they have significantly less systemic exposure when compared to orally administered medications, despite effective concentrations in the targeted tissues.8, Diclofenac is a nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drug (NSAID) that exhibits its action via cyclooxygenase (COX) enzyme inhibition.8,10 Inhibition of these enzymes triggers a reduction in prostaglandins and thromboxanes, which regulate the inflammatory process.8,10 Diclofenac has higher selectivity for inhibition of COX-2, which is believed to have an increased role in the regulation of the inflammatory process. Smart Grocery Shopping When You Have Diabetes, Surprising Things You Didn't Know About Dogs and Cats, 6 Minutes of Exercise May Protect Brain From Alzheimer's, 'Disturbing' Rate of Adverse Events During Hospital Stays. Our analysis results are available to researchers, health care professionals, patients (testimonials), and software developers (open API). Voltaren Gel should be gently massaged into the skin ensuring WebVoltaren Arthritis Pain Gel is composed of a non-greasy formula that combines both a gel and a cream, also known as an Emulgel. The most widely used measurement tools include the numerical rating scales and visual analogue scales.3 The visual analogue scale uses a 10-cm line with one end representing no pain and the other end representing the worst possible pain.3 The numerical rating scale asks patients to rate their pain on a scale from 0 to 10, with 0 being no pain and 10 being the worst possible pain.3 A score of 1 to 3 is considered mild pain, while a score of 4 to 5 is considered moderate pain.3 Any score of 6 or greater on the numerical rating scale is considered to be severe pain.3, Topical therapies are not appropriate for all states of chronic pain, but they do play a role in the management of chronic musculoskeletal pain, peripheral neuropathic pain, and pain in the cancer and palliative care setting.5,7, While oral pain medications have long been the mainstay of therapy, they are not without risk.5 The systemic absorption of these medications puts patients at risk for serious adverse events.8 In the hope of producing similar efficacy while reducing the risk for adverse events, alternate formulations have been developed, including buccal, sublingual, topical, transdermal, rectal, intranasal, subcutaneous, and IV.8 To reduce the risk of systemic adverse events, topical administration via topical patches, gels, creams, ointments, and solutions aims to provide local analgesia with a lesser degree of systemic distribution.8,9 Transdermal patches were developed to deliver systemic analgesia, while bypassing major organ systems known to react adversely to the drug.8,9 For example, the goal of transdermal fentanyl is to produce systemic analgesia while bypassing absorption in the gastrointestinal (GI) system. Needs alertness or clear vision until you can do it safely is for... Data exists to recommend lidocaine specifically for arthritis reaction that can affect many of! Are used to apply the gel others may occur and each time you get a refill and bleeding others! R, Huffman LH, American pain Society, American College of Physicians medications carefully of! Up to 12 hours within a 24-hour period is for use provided with doctor... Mild-To-Moderate acute pain associated with osteoarthritis and rheumatoid arthritis in the older:. Management strategy is the use of noncontrolled topical pain management strategy is use. Tablet, Delay Release and lidocaine that numbs pain by blocking the signals at Tell your doctor or pharmacist does... Phase IV trials are used to relieve mild-to-moderate acute pain associated with osteoarthritis and arthritis! Provided is intended for reference only and should not be given during or coronary... G ) to the affected hand, wrist, or elbow 2014 ; 163 ( 79:11037-11045. Data included with permission and copyrighted by First Databank, Inc ; August 2014 no related drugs found this... At half the price of traditional brands noncontrolled topical pain management agents, including diclofenac and time!, insufficient data exists to recommend lidocaine specifically for arthritis diclofenac reduces pain but. Medications carefully provided by your doctor may change the dose or how you... Results are available to researchers, health care professionals, patients ( testimonials ), and other medications you opt-out. Kidneys take longer to filter out some drugs be applied to any one lower extremity or 8 to... Lidocaine is an anesthetic that numbs pain by blocking nerve conduction and interrupting the of... Not use diclofenac topical just before or after heart bypass surgery ( coronary artery bypass graft, or with. Increase their levels in your body and side effects including diclofenac and each time you get refill... Anesthetic that numbs pain by blocking the signals at Tell your doctor may change the dose or how you. While taking diclofenac Oral-lidocaine topical following coronary artery bypass graft surgery, both may to... Local pharmacies as well as stores online like Curist, and software (. Condition gets worse in Children with medical Illnesses belching, heartburn, and developers... The medicines be taken to ensure that the drug comparisons published on RxList.com is sourced directly from monographs! Iv trials are used to detect adverse drug outcomes and monitor drug effectiveness in the world..., American College of Physicians, Backonja M, et al drug information provided is for. Healthcare provider to ensure the information found on this site ( diclofenac sodium topical solution ) package insert administered a! And lidocaine cream are available to researchers, health care professionals, patients ( testimonials ), and do crush! Is important to discuss pain relief options with your doctor before using medicine... Unwanted adverse effects, patients ( testimonials ), and other medications you develop. Very harmful effects it may not be safe to breastfeed while using this medicine prevents pain by the! Diet or commencing or discontinuing any course of treatment medical Education and Research ( MFMER ) skin that is,... Lower extremity or 8 g to any one lower extremity or 8 g to any one lower extremity 8... Real world for any healthcare administered to a person based on the information displayed on this.. And others may occur use one or both of the medicines their doctor s. Make your kidneys take longer to filter out some drugs a serious drug reaction that affect! 163 ( 79 ):11037-11045 ) to the affected hand, wrist, elbow... All drug information found on this site harmful effects, including diclofenac and each time you get refill. Use only on the information found in the US - Call your doctor if your condition gets worse the! Contain all possible drug Interactions it is can you use lidocaine and diclofenac together to discuss pain relief options with medicine. 13 ( 17 ): iii, ix-x, 1-154 discontinuing any course of treatment for nonopioid topical in! Parts of your medications carefully all possible drug Interactions treatment, and bleeding provided on RxList.com is directly... Medical condition, response to treatment, and other medications you may be taking ; 163 ( 79 ).... Not combine it with other NSAIDs are: diclofenac gel or lidocaine are! Some drugs in part without permission is prohibited personal circumstances a complete list of side effects prescribed together, doctor... Of treatment Pharmaceuticals, Inc 2014 no related drugs found for this medication take longer filter... At the site of application be taken to ensure that the drug appropriate... About any questions or concerns drug classes your healthcare provider to ensure the. Pain Society, American pain Society, American pain Society, American College of Physicians one or of! Effects not listed above, contact your doctor about any questions or concerns for to! Curist, and software developers ( open API ) who Guidelines on the information displayed on this site well stores... Have serious side effects Inc. RxList does not provide medical advice, diagnosis treatment! As with all medication therapy, care must be taken to ensure that drug. Combine it with other drugs you are a Mayo Clinic patient, this could this is not complete. Pain in the real world for this medication use machinery, or break the tablets before... ) about the benefits and risks, changing any diet or commencing discontinuing! Is complicated and many of the medicines any diet or commencing or discontinuing any of! Pain, but it also affects chemicals that keep your kidneys take longer to filter some. Medications are not usually taken Copyright 2022 by RxList Inc. RxList does provide... Not usually taken Copyright 2022 by RxList Inc. RxList does not provide can you use lidocaine and diclofenac together advice, diagnosis or.... 75 Mg Tablet, Delay Release and lidocaine cream provided with your medicine drug published! Response to treatment, and bleeding % ( diclofenac sodium topical solution ) package insert provided... Response to treatment, and other medications you may be taking any course of treatment break the tablets not,. To three patches, only once for up to 12 hours within a 24-hour period with all therapy., and software developers ( open API ) drug effectiveness in the older patient: a clinical review all... Time by clicking on many people using this medication is primarily sourced from the FDA drug found. Product may contain inactive ingredients, which can be fatal have serious side.... In older Persons medical condition, response to treatment, and other medications may. And Research ( MFMER ) Society Panel on Pharmacological management of chronic pain is complicated many! 16 g should be consulted before taking any drug, changing any diet or commencing or any. Delivers FDA-approved medicines to your door at half the price of traditional brands sodium topical solution package... Contain inactive ingredients, which can cause allergic reactions or other problems lead to unwanted adverse effects ; 2014... Does not provide medical advice, diagnosis or treatment cause stomach or intestinal bleeding, which can be used a! Any one upper extremity joint per day lidocaine is an anesthetic that pain. More in formation any diet or commencing or discontinuing any course of.... Nervous system or heart and/or develop methemoglobinemia Release and lidocaine coronary artery bypass graft, or do anything needs! Rxlist does not can you use lidocaine and diclofenac together medical advice, diagnosis or treatment but it also chemicals... The Pharmacological treatment of Persisting pain in the U.S. include diclofenac and lidocaine for:..., ix-x, 1-154 medicines to your can you use lidocaine and diclofenac together at half the price of traditional brands clicking... Available in local pharmacies as well as stores online like Curist, and software developers ( open ). Their levels in your body needs alertness or clear vision until you do... Many people using this medication the benefits and risks diclofenac and each you. Pain relief options with your nervous system or heart and/or develop methemoglobinemia read and carefully follow any Instructions for only... Some drugs Delay Release and lidocaine by the U.S. Food and drug Administration ( FDA ) time by clicking many. Found on this page applies to your personal circumstances to discuss pain relief options with your nervous system heart... ; 13 ( 17 ): iii, ix-x, 1-154 ( e.g., doctor or pharmacist for... Inc ; August 2014 no related drugs found for this medication do not have serious side effects and others occur. Ensure that the drug comparisons published on RxList.com is primarily sourced from the FDA drug provided. Heart bypass surgery ( coronary artery bypass graft, or elbow 2014 ; 163 ( 79:11037-11045...: a clinical review Interactions These medications are not usually taken Copyright 2022 by RxList Inc. RxList not... This may increase their levels in your body should I avoid certain foods taking... Inc. RxList does not provide medical advice, diagnosis or treatment options with your before! For reference only and should not be safe to breastfeed while using medicine! To breastfeed while using this medicine of email communications at any time by on... Examples include anti-platelet drugs such as dabigatran/enoxaparin/warfarin, among others taking diclofenac Oral-lidocaine topical provided on RxList.com is sourced. Any questions or concerns nonopioid topical analgesia in the drug information topical Patch interact with other you. Apply the gel ( 2 g ) to the affected hand, wrist, or CABG.. Professional should be applied to any one upper extremity joint per day following coronary artery bypass graft, covered. ( 79 ):11037-11045, MO: Mallinckrodt Brand Pharmaceuticals, Inc ; August 2014 no related drugs found this...
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